Hi everyone, sorry i've been out of touch again...i am in the final throes of revising my book, which really does exist and really will come out at the end of the year, please lord.

meanwhile i wanted to get back into the thread introduced by Redsonya about what happens when a spouse loses their job, or has to take a lesser job or can't work or gets laid off, etc.

i'm in a similar situation, although the causes are different than what other folks brought up--like immigration. my husband bartends and has finished a novel, which he still hopes to sell--and he is also hoping to get into grad school for the fall. but the point is, he hates bartending and yet because he's done only that for so long, he's having a hard time now segueing into more meaningful, more lucrative work. and yes, he has been quite depressed about being "stuck." he feels his choice to bartend while he wrote--which seemed like a good tradeoff once upon a time--may have painted him into a corner. i can't say too much more; i think this is about as comfortable as he'd feel if he read this. but there's more, as you can imagine.

it's very hard for men and women to get used to the new world financial order, which is to say: there is no financial order. anna, one of the WIR you never hear from cuz she's "wicked busy," as she would say, ;-)--she has a stay at home husband. he doesn't work right now. she brings home the bacon. period. it's a totally 1950s arrangement--in 21st century terms. is it odd? not when you consider that that's how large chunks of the world have done things for centuries.

still, i think of my husband's sense of despair--and my own confusion about how i'm "supposed to feel" about our situation--and i realize i don't know what the answer is. i believe my husband is on the right path now, trying to get into school to make a career shift. i also believe he will publish his novel. i tell him i have faith in him. and meanwhile, remind myself that while life would be easier if he was a bigger earner, SO WHAT? so i also try to practice what Kala described (sorry for such a long quote, but i like the smooch part ;-):

"It is hard not to let money or lack of it define us in this society. But that's exactly where we need to be most vigilant--if it takes telling yourself and one another that you are good, worthy people trying your best like everybody else, then repeat that a hundred times a day. You cannot internalize other peoples' judgements, or dominant cultural messages that judge your worth by your possessions, jobs, money, etc. etc. If that requires turning off the television, not watching commercials, so be it! (I mute them or use that time to wash a plate or two, or do little increments of cleaning, or smooch:-) because I hate hate hate how loud and ugly some commercials are in telling me what I need to be doing with my life and my money!)"

Hi everyone, I'm using my executive privileges here to copy something from the comments section and post a modified version up front. I'm sorry for the repeat, but after commenting, i realized what a big financial issue the Post-Kid Lifestyle is. (By post-kid, I mean after giving birth, not after your child departs for college or the Peace Corps.)

For most people the financial commitment of raising a wee one tends to preclude the enjoyment of a lot of your pre-kid lifestyle (eating out, playing pool and drinking beer all night, travel, freestyle spending on self, etc.). BUT that is not always the case, and as adults we still have some control over how we spend our post-kid dollars. I know folks who gave up the hot car for the minivan, whose social life dwindled to a trickle, who began referring to their sex life in the past tense and said their next vacation would be on their 40th wedding anniversary. But those lifestyle adjustments--or sacrifices--didn't always have to do with money, but with choices and priorities. My hub's biggest fear is that upon becoming parents, our youthful lust for life will be extinguished and we'll molder away into what he calls "stuffy middle age." Um, no. NOT THE PLAN AT ALL. But the pattern he has seen among his friends and siblings is that Kids Come First, and it's a mortal sin of self-indulgence to spend one red cent on yourself if it could be better put toward enhancing the life of your offspring. Having been raised by loving parents who didn't have much money to spend on us or themselves, I have a different perspective--which is that kids will take everything you can give, but they'll get along FINE if you don't. Meaning: Could my parents have worked harder to provide more material and worldly comforts and advantages to me and my brother? Sure. Would I have needed less therapy and been more accomplished and well-adjusted now as a result? I doubt it. But my parents might have had a happier marriage if they had...well... but i digress. Getting back to me point: One couple I know, who are blissful, delighted, besotted parents, decided long before their child was born that they would keep as much of their "couple lifestyle" as they could. It was their emotional and financial priority. They hired babysitters. They took vacations. They couldn't dine out much, so dinner parties at their house became high-spirited, gourmet events. They are my role models. And although they had the bucks--two incomes--to afford these things, I have seen the same with our Beth, who doesn't (esp. now that she's in school).

She and her DH would have "date nights" at home because they can't afford a sitter. They took a vacation last year, with the in-laws minding their little girl for the week--and they're taking another kid-free vacation this year. When I spoke to Bethie the other night, she was cooking up a storm of indian food for a potluck with friends that she and her DH were hosting that night. So I am telling myself as much as I'm telling those with post-kid lifestyle fears-- i think the financial focus of parenthood doesn't always have to be Kid First, indeed, perhaps, shouldn't be Kid First, but sometimes Us First.

Hi all, so I've been working on a story about the cost of having kids--but from an emotional, spiritual or psychological standpoint. I mean, the fiscal cost of having children is well-documented--it can be as high as $250,000 between birth and age 18 (and that US Dept. of Agriculture figure doesn't include college, ok?). I even found this really smart, eye-opening article about how much your income needs to increase as you're raising your kids, so that you don't go broke: http://c01.moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Raisekids/P127165.asp?GT1=7588 Of course, as well a know, these figures can be overblown. Many, many families (Tricia is a great example and so is Beth) raise their children on very modest incomes without breaking the bank. But what I'm really curious about is the fact that when people are surveyed about how happy they feel about various life decisions--for example, being married consistently adds to people's happiness--having children doesn't seem to add much. In other words, people report that being married does improve their quality of life, but I haven't found research that indicates most people feel that having kids does the same. As usual, I'm curious to hear the frank opinions from all the WIR out there. I know that kids are "worth it"--expensive or not, having children is a priority (if not a joy and a blessing) for most people. But i've always assumed that the decision to make the investment in having a child is one that naturally makes people much, much happier in the long run. But maybe that's not the way to look at it. I'm interested to hear what you think...

I was surprised and intrigued to see the number of people in the last post who mentioned the tricky business of lending money to loved ones. Several years ago I worked with a woman who confessed that she was in a bind with regard to her dad. He kept asking her for "loans", which of course he never paid back. At first she felt obligated to help, and then she realized that she was going to get herself in debt--and ruin her marriage--if she kept supporting her father. Now I can't remember why he needed money, but it wasn't serious, like a health problem. Still, how can you refuse to help a parent, as one of you posted? Even if it's just that they can't stretch their Social Security payments--are you supposed to leave them in the lurch? Without enough to cover rent and maybe food? I don't know the answer to that on the personal front--it's for every woman to decide herself--but I do know that what someone else posted is true. You can't, can't, CANNOT jeopardize your own financial health. If you're going into debt or getting into trouble to help someone you love--stop. You're not making the situation better by putting yourself at risk. Are there other resources in your family? Someone with the cash who can help? Is there a way for that family member to take out a personal loan so you're not on the hook? I often think that we leave the community as the last resort, but when it comes to this sort of a dilemma, i wonder if there are ways our communities might offer support that we don't even realize. If someone's child suffers an accident, the church might have a fundraising supper or auction. Likewise, I wonder if the folks in the community where a vulnerable relative lives might be able to step in during a crisis.

Hi Everybody-- Here is a topic I often find tricky: How to establish a gift-giving policy with your friends that works for each person involved. Some friends are so easy. You already know that the two of you exchange little beauty-type gifts--OR that you don't expect any gift at all this time of year. She does the family-only thing, and so do you. But what if you don't--or you're not sure. Last year I said to a couple of friends, "Hey, so...do we exchange gifts...or what?" I wouldn't have been so plain about it, but I wasn't sure--and I didn't want to risk any hurt feelings or dashed expectations. Luckily my frankness sparked a couple of brief but very happy exchanges which cleared up where everyone stood on the matter. This year I may need to ask that question again. I've grown closer to a couple of friends, and now I'm wondering if our gift policy might need to change. (Last year no presents were needed--but this year...?) Every once and a while a friend surprises me by giving me a gift. If I haven't thought to get him/her a gift--and if our gift policy isn't established--I do my best to thank him/her with all the graciousness I can muster, while also sparing myself any guilt. Sometimes you just have to say, THANK YOU!, and not run to the store out of pressure or obligation to get them something in return. Still...this is hard, and obviously there are no clear-cut rules. For the last two years a dear, dear friend has always given DH and me a little something, often homemade, but always useful, always a terrific little treat. And we...we haven't given him anything, I'm embarassed to report. Although during the year, we do more little treats, perhaps. Still...this isn't a quid-pro-quo, but an expression of holiday generosity...Your thoughts, experiences...?

I have been trying to keep track of the various discussion threads people would like. Per your requests, here's one on finding financial sanity WITH YOUR MATE. OK, gals--it's time. Let's talk about whether or not it's possible for two romantic partners to live happily ever after...in the financial sense. Can His and Hers money styles merge? Does true love translate to financial intimacy? If you think so...tell me why you think so, and what worked in your relationship. If you haven't achieved financial harmony yet (and many of us haven't), what's up? What are the points of contention? What are the habits or expectations or desires that get in the way? Are there secrets, distrust, power struggles? I tend to think that there are two main obstacles. 1) On the meta level, couples need to be on the same page with regard to goals--which goals, by when and how. 2) On the day-to-day level, couples need to agree on what their basic money management system should be--and commit to sticking with it. Those two things are surprisingly hard, for all kinds of reasons. Some of which I can't even categorize. When my hub took over paying all the bills, why did he leave out my cell phone initially? I guess he assumed it was my cell, I'd pay for it. But hadn't we agreed that he would pay ALL the bills? other than that, nowv we've pretty much got the day-to-day money system down, but i'm we're not clear on our goals. it's not that we disagree, as much as we're a little murky on the bigger picture...and that's not financially sustainable. Am so curious to hear your thoughts...

Happy Halloween, y'all! So at the risk of my hub someday reading this and then wanting to kill me, I thought i'd post our sorta kinda dilemma situation here. I just think you guys are so smart and good about these issues, I really want to know your thoughts. Plus, i've seen mention of other DH issues here, so I hope I'm not alone in these struggles. My hub is a writer and bartender who has finished a novel and is planning to get his MFA so he can teach. (He's applying to schools for fall of 2006 and heaven knows how we'll pay for it, but whatever. That's a later posting.) I'm the primary earner right now. And i guess my fantasy was that after he got his MFA, and got a teaching job, we'd be on more equal footing vis a vis our incomes. His income now is fine, and together we make over six figures. Who am I to complain? But we're thinking of having a kid, we're about to shell out for grown up health insurance...............and while he's in school I'll be probably mostly supporting us. WHICH IS FINE. the issue is: i just spoke to a friend who klonked me on the head about what a teacher's salary is like. glagh. not quite the amt I was thinking, which would be like $50K. $50K is my idea of a "decent salary." but she has her MFA already, and knows many other writers who are credentialed. so i trust her word that this is not a likely amount. i left my conversation with her feeling self-conscious and shallow. shouldn't i be pleased with what we do earn? as she said to me: What more do you think you want, what is it you feel you don't have? "travel!" was my response. but in fact, what i was imagining was a life, in a few years, where we had real breathing room. we can take small breaths now. but not deep ones. you know? and if we're lucky enough to add a kid into the mix, will things be harder? I respect and love my talented hub. he will be an excellent teacher; he will be able to continue to write. which makes me happy, but...still the primary earner. Not that I was looking to quit. But...I guess...I didn't realize that maybe i wish it were otherwise sometimes. I suspect he knows that, although we've never said those words. i guess i'm just intimidated and daunted by the idea that we may never be full economic partners--although we are fully, fully partners in every other way--and isn't that what matters? .......... this is bugging me.

You guys kill me. And so does this blog, which is so inflexible that people end up doing the darndest things. Case in point: Tonite i log on and see that there are 53 comments on the "Debt vs. Saving" post. Wow! I think, people really care about this issue. Um, no. Half the posts were about debt vs. savings--HALF WERE ABOUT GETTING MARRIED. So 1) If any one needs some classic WIR advice about how to have a cheap wedding, please check out the post on "Debt v. Saving", and scroll through the comments until you get to the maniac confab about cheap nuptials. 2) I have been through the wedding mill myself, and I wrote a column about it: My big, fat, cheap wedding. This echoes many of the comments on the blog--but you may find it useful anyway. 

As i read the comments, i found myself agreeing with various people--and i thought cheryl made a good point. she had never gone overboard on anything--vacations, cars, nothing--until her $19K wedding. and as she said, it was worth every dime. i think that's something i wish i had paid more attention to: shelling out extra money to make it really special. or even extra effort. i do regret that we were so focused on staying within budget that we skimped on stuff like music and photos, which would have been great to have. cheers, you guys--here's to cheap wedded bliss!

So Jen's ex is auctioning off a bunch of love letters and other keepsakes from their teenage romance days! That's so skeezy. The guy, Michael Baroni or something, had a summer romance with her in 1984. 1984!!! Now he's trying to save his financial butt by selling the memorabilia. The whole package of stuff starts at $100,000. OK, just what kind of financial hot water did this guy get into? Is he in debt? A gambler? Or just an opportunist who'd like a snazzier car, a bigger house? Imagine the conversations he must have had. I mean, he's held onto the stuff for 21 years. Never sold it--and he could have. Maybe last week he was he sitting in a bar with his best friend, crying into a Heineken about how much money he owes the IRS. Finally his friend says, "y'know man, you could sell those letters." "no, man, i can't do that. i have my pride." "!@#$% pride, dude. you could make a MINT. pay off the IRS, all your credit cards--and take a round-the-world cruise." "forget it! anyway, they're too old. we were kids. i wouldn't even get five thousand." "you gotta be joking! love letters from the young Aniston! she's a staaaaaar, man. and people will buy anything. you ever been on eBay? unbelievable what people will pay for. i heard some guy auctioned off like an invisible sword or something. but these are For Real. ten bucks says you can make $100,000." "you are DREAMING, man, dreaming! jeez, it's not like i have a picture of her skinny dipping." "hmmm. not a bad idea. why don't you -get- a picture of -someone- skinny dipping, include it in the package, put the whole damn thing on eBAy, and retire a millionaire!" ------ ok, so we don't know how this guy made his decision. but what do you think? if you had dated, say, brad pitt when you were 16 and had some crummy old notes and cards--would you sell them? maybe i'm just jealous...i don't think i've dated anyone worth a profit. ;-)

I was just interviewing a single mom about how the heck she manages to feed and raise her three kids on about $30,000 a year. She had a number of interesting suggestions (keep an eye out for the article, which I'm writing for next week)--but one really struck me. While volunteering for a school band fundraiser, she ran across some stuff she wanted to get for her daughter. She tried to rationalize it, by saying she could buy this treat--and save it for her daughter's birthday. But the thing is, the reason this woman can survive with three kids (one in tech school, one headed to college AND a teenage daughter) is that she's figured out that even a good idea sometimes isn't worth spending money on. As I sat there taking notes, I felt a familiar squirmy feeling in my stomach. I'd just splurged on my husband's birthday. Because under the well-known Birthday Laws, any and all purchases are justified. Because birthday money isn't real money. (Which is how I was raised, by the way--these myths don't arise from thin air!) So I not only bought him a couple of gifts, I coughed up my credit card so we could go out to dinner. (Never mind I'd been planning to cook.) We can afford it, I said to myself. And we can. But that's not the point, is it? The point is, we're about to spend $600 redoing the floor of our porch. And painting the upstairs bedrooms. Did I somehow forget that lumber and paint STILL COST MONEY? What talking to this woman brought home for me is that we all can, of course, afford lots of stuff. But what stuff do you want to afford? What's the right choice? I'm constantly amazed (stunned), by my own ability to get into financial hot water because I forget to make this basic calculation.

One topic I'd like to get going here is how hard it is to deal with money and your partner. This includes but is not limited to: --Your partner's financial life/problems/issues/weird habits. --Your partner's opinion of your financial life/habits etc. --Who earns more. --Who spends more. --Who is "in charge" of the money. --Whether you can talk about it. --Whether you can plan financially together. Although I'm not at liberty to discuss the private lives of the Women in Red--I'll let them come forward on this topic when and if they so choose--I REALLY wish i could get everyone talking about this. Here is what i can say: Of the women in the group who are married, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS MONEY ISSUES WITH THEIR HUSBAND. And that includes me. I earn more than my beloved does, and while that's not a sore spot...well...i just deleted what the sore spots are. It's too embarrassing. Isn't that lame? But what if my mother in law reads this? What if my friends read this? I put a lot of energy into keeping up the facade that All Is Well. We Are FINE. Money is NOT AN ISSUE. Which, of course, is a big fat lie. And I wonder if we all could come clean about this--would it help?